23 thoughts on “NewsSpeak & PoliticalSpeak: junior doctors in the NHS”
renumerate adequately as a result? how much do they want? how much would a nurse get paid for working saturday? if they want to leave the country I want them to refund the tax money paid to train them.
Perhaps the same should apply to all trained individuals who have gained a degree……so when the finance people or the scientists or the academics in other fields or the business people with an MBA decide to leave the UK and work abroad….surely if we ask Drs to repay the money used to train them, we should be asking anyone who has cost us tax money to train them should pay this back. And why stop at University graduates? Why not ask for the money back for primary school or secondary school pupils who leave and go and live abroad? Ludicrous argument!
Big businesses are threatening to live the UK, Bankers are threatening to leave the UK, now Doctors are threatening to leave the UK.Good riddance to you all! The NHS are tax-payer funded and facilitated your training and now you're threatening to leave? Go to hell.
A little hint. Swallowing the propaganda promulgated by the weaselly Jeremy Hunt and his disseminators in the right-wing media can obviously be very bad for your blood pressure 😉
I was referring to the misinformation peddled by Hunt not this letter, which seems a reasonable response to his imposition of a contract on the junior doctors, which is an attempt to get a "seven day service" without adequately investing in more staff. Junior doctors (and all other staff) will have to work even longer and in many cases for less. Nurses and other groups will be next.I mean, what's not to like?
In 1994 I was admitted to A&E for a suspected bleed on the brain. I saw a junior doctor after a six hour wait. She was so tired she was yawning and apologised for her faeces breath. After her neurological examination she asked me if she had missed something in the test. The government won't be recruiting so there'll be less cover during the week. It starts here, but what about transport, cleaners, porters, phlebotomists, transport, administrative staff, radiographers, equipment engineers, pharmacy, not to mention nurses. When the UK was gripped with rioting, none of the politicians came back from their holidays. Double standards.
Doctors need to get real. They will earn way more over a career span than most others in society, therefore, one finds it hard to get all emotional for them. Doctors get seriously mega pensions paid for by us (and themselves, too, to be fair).Doctors aren't going to food banks. Doctors do not struggle to heat their homes or feed their kids. Doctors do not live in social housing. Many of my MS community do face a lot of what I've listed and they can't hold the nation to ransom the way the BMA is. Hence, why we have no sympathy for junior doctors.This isn't really about working more hours, is it? You want more money, don't you?Pure greed. You can leave Britain if you wish. We'll just recruit from India.
Are you implying that the Indian work force is simply there to plug demands from western countries? Or are you suggesting that as a consumer you are happy to accept a square peg even if the hole is round? Because that would be discrimination…
I think she/he's suggesting that there are always people who are more desperate and willing to work for what others aren't. Prolly also suggesting that doctors' first world woes don't really interest him/her as his/her situation is dire. I don't blame him/her.
Technically, discrimination would be excluding square pegs from applying for jobs in round holes on the basis of their shape. Allowing square pegs into round holes actually sounds very inclusive and liberal!
You have to read between the lines for that one. When it applies to hiring doctors from the Indian subcontinent, UK's immigration Tier 2 policy for highly skilled non-EU migrants (includes doctors) changed in 2012 (led by UK's immigration officer Damian Green). For a person under Tier 2 visa to apply for indefinite stay, they will need to earn more than £35,000 per annum or their applications will not be successful. This level of salary is for a registrar (one rung below a consultant), and has resulted in a dramatic drop in applicants, which has been highlighted by HR in hospitals. This little change went pretty much unnoticed by everyone except by the Banks, in particular HSBC, which is now sticking its IT staff in Abu Dhabi!
As MS patients we don't want our doctors to go on strikes. And if they are not happy with the policies of the developed country they live in, I challenge them to go work in the resource poor countries ProfG has talked about. Maybe then they'll be more appreciative of the perks they get in rich countries.
Put them on performance related pay: Shitty pay for a shitty patient outcome. Most MS neuros would be on the breadline within weeks!I rather suspect this would have the added benefit of consigning interferon beta to the history books.Win-win!!
The new contact amounts to a significant pay-cut and I think most people would resist that. Sadly the government are not being honest about that and say they are giving a pay-rise. This is just not true. Junior doctors and consultants are all working at weekends, it is misleading to imply that everything stops on Friday afternoon. While it may be desired that hospital work at full capacity 7 days a week with no day different to the next at present there is barely enough staff to do manage weekday working. Junior doctors and consultants are spread pretty thin across wards and outpatients during the weekdays and there are many vacancies in the workforce and a heavy reliance on locum and overseas doctors already. Full 7 day a week working needs a much larger workforce and more investment. Imposing the new contract on junior doctors does not produce this result.
renumerate adequately as a result? how much do they want? how much would a nurse get paid for working saturday? if they want to leave the country I want them to refund the tax money paid to train them.
On a private sector pay they will receive more…Do you have a figure on tax contribution – evidence is everything in this blog!
Perhaps the same should apply to all trained individuals who have gained a degree……so when the finance people or the scientists or the academics in other fields or the business people with an MBA decide to leave the UK and work abroad….surely if we ask Drs to repay the money used to train them, we should be asking anyone who has cost us tax money to train them should pay this back. And why stop at University graduates? Why not ask for the money back for primary school or secondary school pupils who leave and go and live abroad? Ludicrous argument!
Exactly. it's a very silly argument that's pure Daily Mail speak.
Big businesses are threatening to live the UK, Bankers are threatening to leave the UK, now Doctors are threatening to leave the UK.Good riddance to you all! The NHS are tax-payer funded and facilitated your training and now you're threatening to leave? Go to hell.
A little hint. Swallowing the propaganda promulgated by the weaselly Jeremy Hunt and his disseminators in the right-wing media can obviously be very bad for your blood pressure 😉
MD2, the letter above states that union doctors will leave the country. Read it, man.It's not propaganda.
I was referring to the misinformation peddled by Hunt not this letter, which seems a reasonable response to his imposition of a contract on the junior doctors, which is an attempt to get a "seven day service" without adequately investing in more staff. Junior doctors (and all other staff) will have to work even longer and in many cases for less. Nurses and other groups will be next.I mean, what's not to like?
In 1994 I was admitted to A&E for a suspected bleed on the brain. I saw a junior doctor after a six hour wait. She was so tired she was yawning and apologised for her faeces breath. After her neurological examination she asked me if she had missed something in the test. The government won't be recruiting so there'll be less cover during the week. It starts here, but what about transport, cleaners, porters, phlebotomists, transport, administrative staff, radiographers, equipment engineers, pharmacy, not to mention nurses. When the UK was gripped with rioting, none of the politicians came back from their holidays. Double standards.
I suggest we shoot one Tory MP a week until the NHS gets the funding it needs.
I hope not!
Doctors need to get real. They will earn way more over a career span than most others in society, therefore, one finds it hard to get all emotional for them. Doctors get seriously mega pensions paid for by us (and themselves, too, to be fair).Doctors aren't going to food banks. Doctors do not struggle to heat their homes or feed their kids. Doctors do not live in social housing. Many of my MS community do face a lot of what I've listed and they can't hold the nation to ransom the way the BMA is. Hence, why we have no sympathy for junior doctors.This isn't really about working more hours, is it? You want more money, don't you?Pure greed. You can leave Britain if you wish. We'll just recruit from India.
Surely that would conflict with the government's immigration policy.
Well said. I agree totally.
Are you implying that the Indian work force is simply there to plug demands from western countries? Or are you suggesting that as a consumer you are happy to accept a square peg even if the hole is round? Because that would be discrimination…
I think she/he's suggesting that there are always people who are more desperate and willing to work for what others aren't. Prolly also suggesting that doctors' first world woes don't really interest him/her as his/her situation is dire. I don't blame him/her.
Technically, discrimination would be excluding square pegs from applying for jobs in round holes on the basis of their shape. Allowing square pegs into round holes actually sounds very inclusive and liberal!
You have to read between the lines for that one. When it applies to hiring doctors from the Indian subcontinent, UK's immigration Tier 2 policy for highly skilled non-EU migrants (includes doctors) changed in 2012 (led by UK's immigration officer Damian Green). For a person under Tier 2 visa to apply for indefinite stay, they will need to earn more than £35,000 per annum or their applications will not be successful. This level of salary is for a registrar (one rung below a consultant), and has resulted in a dramatic drop in applicants, which has been highlighted by HR in hospitals. This little change went pretty much unnoticed by everyone except by the Banks, in particular HSBC, which is now sticking its IT staff in Abu Dhabi!
As MS patients we don't want our doctors to go on strikes. And if they are not happy with the policies of the developed country they live in, I challenge them to go work in the resource poor countries ProfG has talked about. Maybe then they'll be more appreciative of the perks they get in rich countries.
How much are junior doctors in debt from their university fees and living costs before they qualify? It's not a three year degree is it?
6 year degree, predicted debt £64,000-82,000: http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/education/medical-students-unlikely-to-repay-student-debts-during-working-life/20009752.fullarticle
Put them on performance related pay: Shitty pay for a shitty patient outcome. Most MS neuros would be on the breadline within weeks!I rather suspect this would have the added benefit of consigning interferon beta to the history books.Win-win!!
The new contact amounts to a significant pay-cut and I think most people would resist that. Sadly the government are not being honest about that and say they are giving a pay-rise. This is just not true. Junior doctors and consultants are all working at weekends, it is misleading to imply that everything stops on Friday afternoon. While it may be desired that hospital work at full capacity 7 days a week with no day different to the next at present there is barely enough staff to do manage weekday working. Junior doctors and consultants are spread pretty thin across wards and outpatients during the weekdays and there are many vacancies in the workforce and a heavy reliance on locum and overseas doctors already. Full 7 day a week working needs a much larger workforce and more investment. Imposing the new contract on junior doctors does not produce this result.